Curse

The Meth · Dec 20, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Just highlighting the fact that if you lower your HP you become more attractive to the enemy AI.

Mostly untrue, monks actually have an inherent attraction to AI. Tests with unarmored warriors with sup runes and armored monks with max health show most mobs still go for the monk if both are at the same distance from the enemies. DP also attracts, but pure health doesn't seem to have that much effect with regards to aggro.

Still, agreed on never using sup runes on a monk unless in exceptional situations. I would rather have a monk that is only 98% efficient then risk having a dead monk.

MagmaRed · Dec 20, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

It doesn't matter in PvE as long as you know how to play.

ender6 · Dec 20, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Mostly untrue, monks actually have an inherent attraction to AI. Tests with unarmored warriors with sup runes and armored monks with max health show most mobs still go for the monk if both are at the same distance from the enemies. DP also attracts, but pure health doesn't seem to have that much effect with regards to aggro.

Still, agreed on never using sup runes on a monk unless in exceptional situations. I would rather have a monk that is only 98% efficient then risk having a dead monk.

That's funny because my 645hp monk can be in the middle of a MOB and is rarely attacked...most monsters run right by me. I would love to see a video of your alleged "Tests".

Yichi · Dec 20, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Just highlighting the fact that if you lower your HP you become more attractive to the enemy AI.

Thus

ok like I said this has what to do with running sup runes on a monk? I'm sure the last thing you would want is the entire mob focusing their aggro on your monks... (55 is different because youre solo or taking the aggro solo. We are talking in a full party.)

But please, feel free to ramble on off topic....

Grammar · Dec 20, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I don't think anyone fully understands how monster aggro works.

We know HP matters, we know armor matters, we know position matters, and we know class type (caster, melee, range), matters.
But it isn't as if we have some exact formula for how much each factor matters in relation to the others.

I think we can all agree that, all other things in the above list being equal, monsters will prioritize casters above melee and ranged characters. But I disagree that there is any evidence that monsters are attracted to monks more than any other casters.
From my experience, monster AI treats monks just like eles, mesmers, necros, and rits. It sees a monk, and sees "caster".

So because we don't really know for sure how the aggro formula works, we do our best as monks to tip the scales in our favor using what we do know.
As such, things like high HP, shield sets, and clever positioning are widely used as a means to deter aggro in PvE.

Div · Dec 20, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Who cares? The point, as stated over and over again, is that superiors aren't optimal for monks to have outside of certain farm builds. People love to beat dead horses. Discussion should've ended ages ago and closed.

ender6 · Dec 20, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

ok like I said this has what to do with running sup runes on a monk? I'm sure the last thing you would want is the entire mob focusing their aggro on your monks... (55 is different because youre solo or taking the aggro solo. We are talking in a full party.)

But please, feel free to ramble on off topic....

Not sure how you are missing what I am saying, though I see you continue to only partially quote me. I am saying don't use sup runes. The higher your health the less enemy AI aggro you take, therefore you can better perform your duties as a monk.

To be a little less obtuse:

Never use sup runes.

And yes, this discussion should have been closed 1 post into it...

Coloneh · Dec 20, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Mostly untrue, monks actually have an inherent attraction to AI. Tests with unarmored warriors with sup runes and armored monks with max health show most mobs still go for the monk if both are at the same distance from the enemies. DP also attracts, but pure health doesn't seem to have that much effect with regards to aggro.

Still, agreed on never using sup runes on a monk unless in exceptional situations. I would rather have a monk that is only 98% efficient then risk having a dead monk.

I spy BS....

Chthon · Dec 20, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

I don't think anyone fully understands how monster aggro works.

We know HP matters, we know armor matters, we know position matters, and we know class type (caster, melee, range), matters.
But it isn't as if we have some exact formula for how much each factor matters in relation to the others.

I agree that we "know" HP, armor, and proximity matter. I'm not sure we "know" class type matters. I've seen some evidence of that, but I'm not sure it's conclusive. It might just be an artifact of a high weight assigned to armor (though The Meth's claims -- which I HAVE heard elsewhere several months ago -- undermine that theory), or it might be an artifact of a weapon-type preference, as some have theorized.

At any rate, we do know enough to say with certainty that 75 extra HP is not going to suddenly make a 60AL monk looks less tasty than a 116 AL warrior. At best, that extra 75 hp is a very expensive way to marginally supplement good positioning and armor bonuses for making you look less tasty. Moreover, it only works if no one else does it -- 75 extra HP on everyone doesn't change your party's relative tastiness ordering one bit.

The argument for 75 extra HP as a vital health buffer makes sense. (I may disagree with it for most parts of the game, but it makes sense.) The argument for 75 extra health as a good way of avoiding aggro is just dumb.

Age · Dec 20, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Mostly untrue, monks actually have an inherent attraction to AI. Tests with unarmored warriors with sup runes and armored monks with max health show most mobs still go for the monk if both are at the same distance from the enemies. DP also attracts, but pure health doesn't seem to have that much effect with regards to aggro.

Still, agreed on never using sup runes on a monk unless in exceptional situations. I would rather have a monk that is only 98% efficient then risk having a dead monk.

This holds a certian amount of merit unless an Ele is in the party and when they start to cast off their spell they will switich to the Ele.I often see this with the henchies as more go after Orion than Alesia.

The Meth · Dec 20, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Just did some testing in saoshang trail. I was a ranger wearing 2 sup runes on low level armor the rest armor-less, had 330 total health. Taking dunkoro with me, who had 600 health. With both of us running around in circles (running is what makes the AI constantly reevaluate its targets) Dunkoro was the universal target. Further testing with other classes seems to show that the selection structure is like this:

if one target is moving (at 100% forward run speed, possibly compared to monster speed so you need to move faster vs faster monsters) and the other isn't, go for the non-moving
else
if one target has a higher priority in the 'AI selection list', go for that target
else
if one target has lower actual armor (do not know if this just counts base armor or also shields/buffs), go for that target
else
if one target has lower max health, go for that target.

I'm not sure what exactly comprises the "AI selection list" it may be an arbitrary list, it may be based upon base armor type (80 base AL, 70 base AL, 60 base AL) which is my guess. Also, distance has a weighting effect on it of some sort, but I did not see distance effect my trials, presumably because i had such an extreme example (myself wearing an average of 10 armor, dunkoro/other casters having 60 + 16 from shield). As most know, once a monster has selected a target it will keep on it until certain events happen that cause it to reevaluate targets, things such as knockdown, interrupts, new targets entering melee range, current target kiting, or switching targets to interrupt. Also I am unsure of the last two steps in that structure, it is probably true that both are combined to create a total "Resilience" number and that is used instead, but my tests were far too coarse to detect that since I used min armor vs max armor.

So to summarize: Good monks pre kite and lose aggro before it even comes at them, and indeed should always be moving unless casting at that moment. The reason you should be using a minor isn't the small chance of avoiding an enemy, its because snares or lag can always cause aggro to fall on you and when that happens you want more health. Getting 10 points more on a heal is rather needless compared to not dieing. The only reason to use a superior is when you know it wont be a disadvantage (ie you know you wont die) and if the monk knows the area is easy enough that noone is going to die, well then there is no need for higher powered heals is there?

ender6 · Dec 21, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Meth: Another thing you may wish to test, that I noticed quite sometime ago when I started using a low energy set (as a monk) is that the lower your mana, the less likely you will be targeted.

ekamdu · Dec 23, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

never take a sup in pvp imo...

in pve you can take one... as long as your not a complete imbicile who just stands still or something when he/she gets attacked...

positioning is more important than health in pve.... imho

fainty · Dec 23, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekamdu

never take a sup in pvp imo...

in pve you can take one... as long as your not a complete imbicile who just stands still or something when he/she gets attacked...

positioning is more important than health in pve.... imho

positioning is important in both pve and maybe more inside pvp. positioning yourself well makes you more able to do pre-kiting and all.

at some times your best positioning is almost inbetween the enemy party, had thus times inside gvg where i was almost over extanding as monk and still was able to do my job from that point and not under attack for the total time i was and standed/moved their.

however pve mobs would eat you alive at times at same position...

John Panda · Jan 02, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

In PvE its okay to have 1 Superior rune because you can just swap them with another piece of armor if running low on health due to DP

this is only okay if you have another piece to swap to.

PvP = Terrible